Dai wrote:...is changing the goal posts because as soon as a bottler or distiller does what you want you make the excuse not to believe them or to discredit them unless it is backed by law. Just because it is not backed by a direct law does not mean it is invalid.
As far as Jimbo and Rumple-Stillskin goes all I saw was two stubborn guy's having a bit of a dis-agreement what Rumpy said was correct in the end, Seale's does sell it's stuff to Plantation and they do doctor it.
Maybe we need a standard declaration or statement when one of these posts looks like it will get out of hand by saying back up your posts with facts or just close that post down. phpBB (the forum software) allows you to close a post down.
I do not want to see this forum going down the road of the ministry of rum. We come here with different opinions and we have always been able to agree to dis-agree I'd like to see it stay that way.
Thanks for your post, but do allow me to clarify.
First, I'm glad you and d.. came to a mutual and openly posted understanding. Second, the poster in question made a number of uncited posts that implied that Seales was somehow in cahoots with Plantation insofar as selling them the rum that was then being secretly altered, and to no small degree. The sum of these was (a) to thus position both Seales as a hypocrite and (b) to position the Project as some kind of coconspirator. These were posted in the manner of "poster reveals hypocrisy of Seales and the Project, details at 11 pm".
Nothing in support, no citations or links short of a catch-all claim in which Mr. Skin pulled no punches...
(Underlines added)Mr. Skin:
"Clearly you do not wish to believe that Seales supplies Plantation their rums. You obviously have a huge problem if this is the case. It is the case as Plantation have confirmed this to myself and I have spoken to them at great length about it.
The facts are there and are easily found. There is no need for rumour and innuendo. You just don't like the truth on this occasion."
Pretty rough stuff, with extreme accusation and unfounded assumption - but - without a single link, citation, or real specifics short of the claim itself. After consultation with a number of concerned members before responding, I finally decided to be kind and gentle. Thus I gave this poster three opportunties to provide links to at least "the facts that are easily found", if not even more. In sum, I bent over backwards to be polite, fair but firm, and provided links of my own to extensive articles quoting both Seales and Plantation. I made it clear the Project long known position as a proponent for truth from the very beginning and listed our past positions in great detail. I even promised to contact Seales directly with serious questions, and that I would publish his answer. I made it clear that there are no sacred cows here, and that we play no favorites and speak free of any commercial pressure.
Nonetheless, Mr. Skin simply refused to provide any data, even the "facts" which he claimed were "available and easily found". The result of this obstreperousness and his damaging claims and statements was to reluctantly force me to place him on "hold", so that he might reconsider and participate as most others have, providing supporting links and information.
Skin did reply to me privately, but has not changed his position, nor has he provided any further links or information in support. He does feel that he has some sort of "right to respond". Actually he's had four opportunities to respond, including a private email.
So what is the truth?
Thanks to the brilliant, long and well-cited posts of Nekk and Mama we came closer to the truth we all seek. And as he always does, Seales himself responded and provided specific and clear detail. The truth? I'll let Richard speak for himself...
Richard Seales:
So far so good. But does he sell rum to Plantation?"Every brand of our own we bottle is of course pure rum with out flavouring or sugar. Only spirit caramel is allowed in Barbados (as for Scotch Whisky) and that is used in some (but not all !) products. Each brand that we bottle for others with our name is also to the same standard."
Both Nekk and Mama's fine research seemed to anticipate and confirm that Seales produces only unaltered rum, some under his own Foursquare labelled brands, and some sold in bulk to a firm in Holland. Once the bulk rum has been sold to this vendor (not Plantation), Seales has no control over who buys from this third party. Theoretically any of us could buy some of Richard's pure bulk for our own "brand", and then futz it up with the usual additives and adulterants. This is exactly what Plantation (and Berry) do, with Plantation choosing to alter the product."We do also sell bulk aged rum (supplied ex cask) but as a general rule (there are exceptions e.g St Nicholas Abbey) we do not sell direct to brands/bottlers. We sell through a famous rum stockist in Holland who supply blends to various brands. Our rums often become an important quality aged component in blends or even end up in confection. This is how Plantation and Berry Bros come to have our rums. They do not buy direct from us but through the stockist in Holland.
The key point: Seales is protecting his reputation by refusing to sell direct to Plantation. He refuses to allow any brand using his rum to cite Seales or Foursquare on the label, unless he personally determines that the product/brand being offered is pure and unaltered. This is exactly why I challenged Mr. Skin to provide the name and issue of any Plantation rum that has been altered AND also cites Foursquare as the distiller. He failed to do so.
Bottom line:
Seales does not sell direct to any brand. He will not allow any altered brand to cite Foursquare. Thus his (and our position) remain unaltered (pun intended, lol).
Last, I'd also like to address Dai's suggestion that the Project might do better by providing an official protocol on citations, or simply shut down a thread. My feeling is that since we have taken so much time to find and approve a few really good posters, this kind of unsupported and negative claims is rare indeed. I'd rather count on the good graces and informative posts that generally appear. I'm very reluctant to shut down any thread, or to "liberate" posters in Shillery fashion.. In this case I consulted with a number of regular posters who confirmed that my approach was courteous and polite, ergo my multiple and open requests to the Skinmeister.
His refusal sealed his fate, and his private email to me provided no real mea culpa of any kind, other than to basically repeat his now disproven claims (Richard as hypocrite and the Project as an ostensibly embarrassed co-conspirator), plus a demand for an imagined "right" to reply. He still stands on his super secret knowledge that confirms some kind of direct deal, but again refuses to cite his sources in any reasonable fashion. His position remains unchanged, namely "I've got a secret source, but you're gonna have to trust me.
I see no reason at this time to simply re-cover old ground already posted, and I'm sure that no one welcomes unproven negative claims. If there's a Plantation added sugar rum that also displays Foursquare as the distiller, then I want to know about it.
My apologies to all, and my thanks to our regular crew who spent considerable time providing extremely detailed and useful information in some very long posts. This site will continue to encourage and publish any reasonable post by any of you. Citations and links are always usedful and are welcomed as a way to provide others with a way to confirm or expand their knowledge.
Keep calm, post and carry on...
