da'rum wrote:What did he say about the cover over program and the rebates?
Phil Prichard coming to Cleveland
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Capn Jimbo
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A clarification...
If you think distilling can be complicated (it can and is), barrel aging is moreso. Let me try this again. We have all been exposed to years of advertising and marketing that equates "age" and "aging" with cost and quality. This is not necessarily so, but in general it is. The problem:
We tend to think of aging as a singular process. There is a myth that smaller barrels "age" faster based on more wood per gallon of rum, a wood/rum ratio. For example a 15 gallon barrel has twice the area of wood exposure per unit of rum than a 53 gallon barrel. Now if wood aging were equivalent solely to time spent in contact with wood, this is an exponential gain of 4 times. Thus a 15 gallon barrel - based on this simplistic idea - would "age" a spirit 4 times faster.
In the video linked on page 1, this microdistiller uses really quite tiny barrels of 2, 3 and 5 gallons in size. His preposterous claim is that his small 5 barrels can achieve in 4 months what a standard 53 gallon barrel would take 4 to 8 years. And even faster in a 2 gallon barrel. Do you believe that? No, and neither do any of the well established distillers of fine spirits.
What's really going on?
If aging were just contact with wood, this notion would be true. But there are really a great many things that go on beyond just simple contact. In sum, there are three general processes:
1. The spirit extracts or adds compounds from the wood (additive).
2. The wood absorbs compounds from the spirit (subtractive).
3. The various compounds both in the wood and in the rum interact with one another to form new compounds, which further interact (interactive).
In truth there are many, many processes occuring and not all at the same speed. Some things happen quickly, and other things happen slowly - regardless of the size of the barrel. Thus, there is no such thing as a singular "aging".
There is aging process #1, #2, #3 ... literally hundreds of variable processes occuring at different rates.
What does this mean?
Standard aging over traditional time is done mostly in 53 gallon barrels and takes a good 4 to 10 years for rum, and say 10 to 15 years for whisky (based on climate). These spirits will exhibit the full range of additive, subtractive and interactive complex compounds that can only be achieved over those time periods.
Now for the small barrels over say 4 months. These barrels will only exhibit the aging processes that occur readily and quickly, and will lack those compounds that occur slowly over years. And the smaller the barrel, the more this imbalance in aging will be evident, as well as a notable lack of complexity.
Simply put it is impossible to replicate 8 years of aging in just 4 months or less. One of the leading authorities on cooperage is author Chuck Cowdery who also published a nice Kindle treatise called "Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whisky" (serious readers can download this for a few dollars).
If anyone is interested in whether there is an "ideal" size smaller than 53 gallons but that achieves the same results, there is...
If you think distilling can be complicated (it can and is), barrel aging is moreso. Let me try this again. We have all been exposed to years of advertising and marketing that equates "age" and "aging" with cost and quality. This is not necessarily so, but in general it is. The problem:
We tend to think of aging as a singular process. There is a myth that smaller barrels "age" faster based on more wood per gallon of rum, a wood/rum ratio. For example a 15 gallon barrel has twice the area of wood exposure per unit of rum than a 53 gallon barrel. Now if wood aging were equivalent solely to time spent in contact with wood, this is an exponential gain of 4 times. Thus a 15 gallon barrel - based on this simplistic idea - would "age" a spirit 4 times faster.
In the video linked on page 1, this microdistiller uses really quite tiny barrels of 2, 3 and 5 gallons in size. His preposterous claim is that his small 5 barrels can achieve in 4 months what a standard 53 gallon barrel would take 4 to 8 years. And even faster in a 2 gallon barrel. Do you believe that? No, and neither do any of the well established distillers of fine spirits.
What's really going on?
If aging were just contact with wood, this notion would be true. But there are really a great many things that go on beyond just simple contact. In sum, there are three general processes:
1. The spirit extracts or adds compounds from the wood (additive).
2. The wood absorbs compounds from the spirit (subtractive).
3. The various compounds both in the wood and in the rum interact with one another to form new compounds, which further interact (interactive).
In truth there are many, many processes occuring and not all at the same speed. Some things happen quickly, and other things happen slowly - regardless of the size of the barrel. Thus, there is no such thing as a singular "aging".
There is aging process #1, #2, #3 ... literally hundreds of variable processes occuring at different rates.
What does this mean?
Standard aging over traditional time is done mostly in 53 gallon barrels and takes a good 4 to 10 years for rum, and say 10 to 15 years for whisky (based on climate). These spirits will exhibit the full range of additive, subtractive and interactive complex compounds that can only be achieved over those time periods.
Now for the small barrels over say 4 months. These barrels will only exhibit the aging processes that occur readily and quickly, and will lack those compounds that occur slowly over years. And the smaller the barrel, the more this imbalance in aging will be evident, as well as a notable lack of complexity.
Simply put it is impossible to replicate 8 years of aging in just 4 months or less. One of the leading authorities on cooperage is author Chuck Cowdery who also published a nice Kindle treatise called "Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whisky" (serious readers can download this for a few dollars).
I apologize if I wasn't clear. It is surely possible to produce a drinkable spirit aged for a relatively short period of time, but it will be notably different and quite limited compared to the same distillate aged for years in standard barrels. The other point I was trying to make that Prichard's 15 gallon barrels are from 3 to 7 times larger than the micro-distiller in the video. Prichard also ages for 3 to 6 years, not just 4 months.Cowdery: "One explanation for the success of the Hudson products, and many other micro-distillery whiskeys, is the fact that mixologists like to work with very flavorful ingredients, and most small barrel whiskeys are certainly that. Their flavors can be intense. But whiskey drinkers and cocktail drinkers tend to be two different tribes. In many cases, the enthusiasm for these products does not come from people who drink their whiskey neat."
Cowdery, Charles (2012-01-13). Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whiskey. (Kindle Locations 259-263). . Kindle Edition.
If anyone is interested in whether there is an "ideal" size smaller than 53 gallons but that achieves the same results, there is...
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Capn Jimbo
- Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
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An addendum...
It is noteworthy that Penobscot Bay Distllery (of the video and of the outrageous claims) never produced its first microbarrel of anything. This is also why the six part video series stopped at three episodes. I had guessed this microdistiller was influenced by the ADI (American Distilling Institute), and it turns out he was.
Sad to say, this "Institute" has a horrible track record, but does very well at convincing deep pocketed hobbyists to part with their money to buy and install modified pot (Carl type) stills from them, and be "trained" to learn to use them. And oh, to produce 8 year old product in 4 months...
Sad story. It's an object lesson in taking advice from a micro-distiller who never ran his still, but who had all the answers.
*******
Link to Cowdery's bibliography:
http://cowdery.home.ix.netcom.com/~mbky ... arrels.htm
I highly recommend that you buy and download his article "Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whisky", just 99 cents.
It is noteworthy that Penobscot Bay Distllery (of the video and of the outrageous claims) never produced its first microbarrel of anything. This is also why the six part video series stopped at three episodes. I had guessed this microdistiller was influenced by the ADI (American Distilling Institute), and it turns out he was.
Sad to say, this "Institute" has a horrible track record, but does very well at convincing deep pocketed hobbyists to part with their money to buy and install modified pot (Carl type) stills from them, and be "trained" to learn to use them. And oh, to produce 8 year old product in 4 months...
Sad story. It's an object lesson in taking advice from a micro-distiller who never ran his still, but who had all the answers.
*******
Link to Cowdery's bibliography:
http://cowdery.home.ix.netcom.com/~mbky ... arrels.htm
I highly recommend that you buy and download his article "Small Barrels Produce Lousy Whisky", just 99 cents.
Aging of spirits is a fairly complex issue. Size of cask is one variable in the whole equation, and to a certain degree and extent, yes - smaller casks speed up the process.
In Scotch whisky industry, the use of 'quarter casks' for example speeds up the maturation of spirit. These are still quite large casks, and their use is limited, because the small cask also brings in quite a lot of wood flavours quickly (undesired levels of oak, if the spirit is left in too long).
One cannot just make the casks smaller and smaller, and take off years from the maturation time though. After all, if this was true, coffee-cup sized casks would produce perfect whisky or rum in an instant! Does not happen.
Charring level of the cask, whether the cask is a used one (as tends to be the case in Scotch whisky industry) or new - all this also affects the maturation and its result. So does the temperature of the maturation environment (again, its not as simple as just turning up the heat and getting superfast, delicious results..).
Some distillers say that their spirit matures faster because they use very long fermentation times.
I have tasted a Scotch single malt aged for less than 3 years, matured in new wood (ordinary size cask). I could have sworn the spirit was at least 7 years old. This spirit came from a distillery renowned for quickly maturing whisky.
We also did some experimentation with 're-finishing' already bottled malt whisky, by first filling a 5 litre charred mini cask with sherry for a few months, then taking the sherry out, and filling the cask with say Laphroaig 10yo cask strength. Result? In just a matter of weeks, the whisky got a fabulous sherry influence. Leave it in just a few weeks too long, the resulting whisky was sherried, but also had harsh, bitter wood notes in the finish.
What did we learn? It was good fun, and the whiskies came out very nice, provided the timing was perfectly monitored and controlled. A tiny 5 litre cask gives splinter-flavours to the whisky very quickly...And this was with whisky that had already received its normal time in a big cask.
I would be seriously doubtful if anyone could simply miniturize the casks, and get excellent results in a matter of months. Its not quite that easy or simple. Planting oak chips, or oak extract may also be used I guess to try and give an impression of an aged spirit, but...again, the result won't be that fantastic for sure.
In Scotch whisky industry, the use of 'quarter casks' for example speeds up the maturation of spirit. These are still quite large casks, and their use is limited, because the small cask also brings in quite a lot of wood flavours quickly (undesired levels of oak, if the spirit is left in too long).
One cannot just make the casks smaller and smaller, and take off years from the maturation time though. After all, if this was true, coffee-cup sized casks would produce perfect whisky or rum in an instant! Does not happen.
Charring level of the cask, whether the cask is a used one (as tends to be the case in Scotch whisky industry) or new - all this also affects the maturation and its result. So does the temperature of the maturation environment (again, its not as simple as just turning up the heat and getting superfast, delicious results..).
Some distillers say that their spirit matures faster because they use very long fermentation times.
I have tasted a Scotch single malt aged for less than 3 years, matured in new wood (ordinary size cask). I could have sworn the spirit was at least 7 years old. This spirit came from a distillery renowned for quickly maturing whisky.
We also did some experimentation with 're-finishing' already bottled malt whisky, by first filling a 5 litre charred mini cask with sherry for a few months, then taking the sherry out, and filling the cask with say Laphroaig 10yo cask strength. Result? In just a matter of weeks, the whisky got a fabulous sherry influence. Leave it in just a few weeks too long, the resulting whisky was sherried, but also had harsh, bitter wood notes in the finish.
What did we learn? It was good fun, and the whiskies came out very nice, provided the timing was perfectly monitored and controlled. A tiny 5 litre cask gives splinter-flavours to the whisky very quickly...And this was with whisky that had already received its normal time in a big cask.
I would be seriously doubtful if anyone could simply miniturize the casks, and get excellent results in a matter of months. Its not quite that easy or simple. Planting oak chips, or oak extract may also be used I guess to try and give an impression of an aged spirit, but...again, the result won't be that fantastic for sure.
I don't disagree with what you say but if it is correct maturation can be speeded up to a degree then maybe using a mixture of barrels say full size for a time in years then transferring to smaller barrels for a year or so may be the way to go for some of the smaller distilleries. All I know is that this is a complex and fascinating subject.JaRiMi wrote:Aging of spirits is a fairly complex issue. Size of cask is one variable in the whole equation, and to a certain degree and extent, yes - smaller casks speed up the process.
In Scotch whisky industry, the use of 'quarter casks' for example speeds up the maturation of spirit. These are still quite large casks, and their use is limited, because the small cask also brings in quite a lot of wood flavours quickly (undesired levels of oak, if the spirit is left in too long).
One cannot just make the casks smaller and smaller, and take off years from the maturation time though. After all, if this was true, coffee-cup sized casks would produce perfect whisky or rum in an instant! Does not happen.
Charring level of the cask, whether the cask is a used one (as tends to be the case in Scotch whisky industry) or new - all this also affects the maturation and its result. So does the temperature of the maturation environment (again, its not as simple as just turning up the heat and getting superfast, delicious results..).
Some distillers say that their spirit matures faster because they use very long fermentation times.
I have tasted a Scotch single malt aged for less than 3 years, matured in new wood (ordinary size cask). I could have sworn the spirit was at least 7 years old. This spirit came from a distillery renowned for quickly maturing whisky.
We also did some experimentation with 're-finishing' already bottled malt whisky, by first filling a 5 litre charred mini cask with sherry for a few months, then taking the sherry out, and filling the cask with say Laphroaig 10yo cask strength. Result? In just a matter of weeks, the whisky got a fabulous sherry influence. Leave it in just a few weeks too long, the resulting whisky was sherried, but also had harsh, bitter wood notes in the finish.
What did we learn? It was good fun, and the whiskies came out very nice, provided the timing was perfectly monitored and controlled. A tiny 5 litre cask gives splinter-flavours to the whisky very quickly...And this was with whisky that had already received its normal time in a big cask.
I would be seriously doubtful if anyone could simply miniturize the casks, and get excellent results in a matter of months. Its not quite that easy or simple. Planting oak chips, or oak extract may also be used I guess to try and give an impression of an aged spirit, but...again, the result won't be that fantastic for sure.
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Capn Jimbo
- Rum Evangelisti and Compleat Idiot
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:53 pm
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If you remember just one thing...
It's this. You can not compress years of aging into months of aging by simply using a very small barrel. Here's why:
Aging is not a singular or even linear process. It is tens of processes - some substractive, some additive and some interactive - all occuring at different times and speeds. Most of them take time, and many of them are time-dependent, not size dependent.
A small barrel can only produce a few of the early processes, and can in no way achieve the comlexity of long aging in larger barrels. There is also the issue of too much young wood contact.
Dai, Prichard's process is a compromise between the videos micro-barrels (of 2, 3 and 5 gallons) used for months, and standard barrels used for years. Phil uses 15 gallon barrels for say 3 to 4 years. This is a compromise. If his rums are flavorful, it has more to do with his fermentation, pot still process, his cuts, and use of food grade molasses. His barrels do add some vanillan, caramelized wood sugars and tannins but cannot add the complexity of long aging (regardless of barrel size). His alligator char also does a bit of smoothing and filtering (like Jack Daniels) but also at the cost of wood complexity.
If you read part one, Phil agrees with this position. His rums are terrific now - I'd love to think what he'd have if he had the financial abiilty and time to truly age them.
It's this. You can not compress years of aging into months of aging by simply using a very small barrel. Here's why:
Aging is not a singular or even linear process. It is tens of processes - some substractive, some additive and some interactive - all occuring at different times and speeds. Most of them take time, and many of them are time-dependent, not size dependent.
A small barrel can only produce a few of the early processes, and can in no way achieve the comlexity of long aging in larger barrels. There is also the issue of too much young wood contact.
Dai, Prichard's process is a compromise between the videos micro-barrels (of 2, 3 and 5 gallons) used for months, and standard barrels used for years. Phil uses 15 gallon barrels for say 3 to 4 years. This is a compromise. If his rums are flavorful, it has more to do with his fermentation, pot still process, his cuts, and use of food grade molasses. His barrels do add some vanillan, caramelized wood sugars and tannins but cannot add the complexity of long aging (regardless of barrel size). His alligator char also does a bit of smoothing and filtering (like Jack Daniels) but also at the cost of wood complexity.
If you read part one, Phil agrees with this position. His rums are terrific now - I'd love to think what he'd have if he had the financial abiilty and time to truly age them.
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'd say there are big limitations on how much one can play with barrel size, and expect good & faster results - and you cannot compress things infinitely without loss of quality in one aspect or another.Dai wrote:
I don't disagree with what you say but if it is correct maturation can be speeded up to a degree then maybe using a mixture of barrels say full size for a time in years then transferring to smaller barrels for a year or so may be the way to go for some of the smaller distilleries. All I know is that this is a complex and fascinating subject.
Quarter casks used by Scotch whisky industry are still huge compared to these mini-casks of few US gallons. And from our own experiments of re-finishing mature whisky, I can tell you that such a tiny cask imparts serious wood splinter notes to a whisky all too quickly. Even many quarter cask whiskies are not matured for the full duration in such casks, and still - I've tasted a few QC's from various distilleries, and the oak comes through in them in a different way - and often very strongly.
Virgin oak with alligator charring does age spirit quicker, and climate & temperature affects this a lot, as mentioned.
I do not believe in superb, mature whisky or rum from tiny casks in just a matter of few months (without other tricks applied). At least I have not encountered such yet.