Capn Jimbo wrote:The concerns have never changed...
They are:
1. Rum has been long been altered. Rum by rum, we have worked to reveal them, beginning with the Zee rums, and continuing on.
2. As the Big Three have taken over the shelves (over 90%), the alteration and cheapening of the product has increased.
3. The regulations have not changed, are clear, but are weakly enforced, if at all.
4. The quasi-commercial sites have until recently denied unlabeled alteration and flavoring until unequivocally revealed by Sweden, and ALKO last year. Even then these sites resist admitting sugar (and other additives) in their "reviews" of now proven altered rums.
5. The massive, multi-billion dollar subsidies to the Big Three in the VI and PR are destroying the market and Caribbean rum as we knew it. Look at your shelves.
6. The products continue to be degraded and now even include Mount Gay and El Dorado. El Dorado's rums are no longer trustworthy insofar as honest labeling.
The Rum Project has held for years that unlabeled alteration was occurring, it has now been proven, and still the labels are misleading in almost every way, including content and age.
Our position has never changed, and remains to reveal the truth of rogue in these regards. Rum in general in no way is a "noble spirit", but has now devolved into two classes: limited, mega-premium limited releases, and Big Three crap that these mega-corporations that now dominate 90% of the rum shelf space, and 100% of the prime space due to their tremendous clout with the distributors.
Anyone who has a hard on for Richard Seale is misdirected and should note that he has stood nearly alone in revealing and promoting the practice. As the Project has reached major audiences, as Caribbean rums are being forced out of business or to lower their quality (think El Dorado) his statements have only become bolder and clearer insofar as this issue.
As for Richard:
Rumple obliquely refers to Foursquare's Facebook entry, namely:
Foursquare:
"More VIP visitors with us at Foursquare, this time with Alexandre Gabriel and Matthieu Gouze of Plantation Rums.
We discussed some very interesting collaborative possibilities. Alexandre likes to experiment so he has some interesting ideas that we have to attempt to implement that could eventually find their way in some special releases.
'Rummies' would have enjoyed being a fly on the wall these last few days at Foursquare."
Clearly this refers to a discussion about future collaberations, and you can be sure they will meet Seale's standards or they will not happen, at least with his name on it. Skepticism is welcomed; unsubstantiated rumour or implication is not. Please do try to be specific and link whenever possible.
******* For those who still doubt, I urge all to check out this must read link to Richard holding forth, no holds barred...
Capn Jimbo wrote:The concerns have never changed...
They are:
1. Rum has been long been altered. Rum by rum, we have worked to reveal them, beginning with the Zee rums, and continuing on.
2. As the Big Three have taken over the shelves (over 90%), the alteration and cheapening of the product has increased.
3. The regulations have not changed, are clear, but are weakly enforced, if at all.
4. The quasi-commercial sites have until recently denied unlabeled alteration and flavoring until unequivocally revealed by Sweden, and ALKO last year. Even then these sites resist admitting sugar (and other additives) in their "reviews" of now proven altered rums.
5. The massive, multi-billion dollar subsidies to the Big Three in the VI and PR are destroying the market and Caribbean rum as we knew it. Look at your shelves.
6. The products continue to be degraded and now even include Mount Gay and El Dorado. El Dorado's rums are no longer trustworthy insofar as honest labeling.
The Rum Project has held for years that unlabeled alteration was occurring, it has now been proven, and still the labels are misleading in almost every way, including content and age.
Our position has never changed, and remains to reveal the truth of rogue in these regards. Rum in general in no way is a "noble spirit", but has now devolved into two classes: limited, mega-premium limited releases, and Big Three crap that these mega-corporations that now dominate 90% of the rum shelf space, and 100% of the prime space due to their tremendous clout with the distributors.
Anyone who has a hard on for Richard Seale is misdirected and should note that he has stood nearly alone in revealing and promoting the practice. As the Project has reached major audiences, as Caribbean rums are being forced out of business or to lower their quality (think El Dorado) his statements have only become bolder and clearer insofar as this issue.
As for Richard:
Rumple obliquely refers to Foursquare's Facebook entry, namely:
Foursquare:
"More VIP visitors with us at Foursquare, this time with Alexandre Gabriel and Matthieu Gouze of Plantation Rums.
We discussed some very interesting collaborative possibilities. Alexandre likes to experiment so he has some interesting ideas that we have to attempt to implement that could eventually find their way in some special releases.
'Rummies' would have enjoyed being a fly on the wall these last few days at Foursquare."
Clearly this refers to a discussion about future collaberations, and you can be sure they will meet Seale's standards or they will not happen, at least with his name on it. Skepticism is welcomed; unsubstantiated rumour or implication is not. Please do try to be specific and link whenever possible.
******* For those who still doubt, I urge all to check out this must read link to Richard holding forth, no holds barred...
I thought you were getting in touch with Seale. If so I would like to see his reply.
Clearly you do not wish to believe that Seale supplies Plantation their rums. You obviously have a huge problem if this is the case.
It is the case as Plantation have confirmed this to myself and I have spoken to them at great length about it.
The facts are there and are easily found. There is no need for rumour and innuendo. You just don't like the truth on this occasion.
Please be specific, and cite and link the "easily found" facts, as they will be welcomed. The goal here has always been truth - also always welcomed - no matter whose ox will be gored (Foursquare included), and unsubstantiated claims and loosely held opinions must really cease. Since you claim to have spoken to Plantation at "great length", you are obligated to report in specific and thorough detail about these encounters. You might start by indentifying yourself and qualify your special access to what is surely proprietary information.
If a particular Plantation rum is at issue, please cite the year and issue, and label details, including whether or not Seales'/Foursquare's name(s) appears on the bottle.
I love the truth, so kindly supply some or hold your fire. An email has indeed been sent to Richard, who often takes his time in responding, but as always his ultimate response will be published. Patience is a virtue.
In the meanwhile, I urge all to read Seales' extremely long and thorough posting linked below (which was actually a response to Plantation's own comment, cited there and also worth read). You are well advised to kindly take my words seriously, as trolling and unwarranted and unsubstantiated claims and flaming are not welcome here. Nor is repetitive argumentativeness and/or failure to respond to a post and the specific statements made, but simply using the opportunity to shift the subject to the former.
Please feel free to PM me if you need further clarification.
I sincerely hope I've been clear as vodka... DFIU!
Here Seales' holds forth on his positon in massive detail, and as a direct response to a statement by Plantation (also linked there). Reading these two extensive statements - one by Plantation and a thorough response by Seales - should make all positions entirely clear. Must reads.
Please! Time to cut the crap, or consider adding some fiber to your diet...
Last edited by Capn Jimbo on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you for your patience. I can assure you a very direct series of questions have been sent to Seales'. While we all await his response, I consider you already obligated to now defend and specify your own positions and claims - already made above - with citations, facts and links.
Please do so now, as claims and innuendo without support have no place here. Thanks. You are free to take any position you wish, but you must dignify them with appropriate specifics, cites, details and links.
If I'm understanding this correctly there is a question as to if foursquare possibly supplies Plantation it's stocks before further aging and dosage? And/Or if they sell barrels they don't bottle of their own product?
This article seems to claim that Foursquare sells stock to C Ferrand and then it is further aged and dosed in France. While this is not directly a plantation rum in this article it is made at the same location and company as plantation rums.
I can't confirm why this blogger put that there. I have a US bottling and I just looked it over and there is not mention of foursquare on it. Maybe his says that? I have a large collection of plantation rum from Barbados of many vintages and styles and none mention foursquare or R.L. Seal at all.
If you translate his blog for two other Barbados rums from plantation he reviewed he is asking himself what distillery these came from and concludes in his opinion based on his tasting experience foursquare.
Also based on the following article I would say he just does not want his name or the distillery name on it if he does not bottle it himself. While I'm not claiming St Nicolas Abbey rum is dosed etc. this article clearly documents barrels being sold by foursquare and bottled by a 3rd party. They also do bottle refills at the estate from these barrels.
My bottle of Abbey does not state Foursquare on it.
While my bottles of "The real McCoy 2, 5, and 12" Do state bottled and made by Foursquare distillery.
So it appears that he just won't put his name or allow its use in anyway on barrels sold and not bottled by foursquare. Which I think is perfect business as long as his name is not on it and its not bottled by him there should be no confusion. I don't think plantation is trying to go around claiming to be another product clearly they are not and are fine to differentiate themselves from the distiller, whomever it is.
You are referreing to an old site of mine, sir. The Plantation 1991 is coming from W.I.R.D.. The Foursquare Distillery was founded and established 1996 if I am not mistaken. This site is old, has many mistakes and will not get any updates. If your conlusions only coming from this then I will get it offline ASAP. I will not discredit Mr. Seales by let this false information standing there. Here is my actual blog.
It's impossible for Seales to deliver what he did not produce. I'm sure you can agree on this.
As for the translations: Google-translations sucks. The rums behind Plantation in the past were coming from W.I.R.D.. The taste is really similar to the ones coming from Blackrock and which you can find in the Cockspur-Rums. 1991, 1995 and 2000 were from W.I.R.D..
Seale does sell his rums to other bottlers. Berry Bros & Rudd for an example is releasing such rums. Those rums are really differently as the old ones coming from Plantation. I'm buying no longer rums from this bottler so I can not say to you what they are now using. They are too sweet for my taste.
I have taken down my old blog-site and I want to apologize for the misunderstanding. I have also corrected some mistakes.
In order to defend mamajuana i will quote the information which led to the false assumption:
- Alambic Classique Foursquare 6 YO (2000 - 2006), 45% vol.
- Baltic Runner Barbados Single Rum Rockley Still 18 YO (1986 – 2004), 68,3% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Berry's Own Selection Bajan Rockley Still 16 YO (1986 - 2002), 46% vol. (Pot Still)
- Berry's Own Selection Bajan Rockley Still 21 YO (1986 - 2007), 46% vol. (Pot Still)
- Berry's Own Selection Barbados Foursquare Distillery 12 YO (1998 - 2010), 46% vol.
- Bristol Classic Rum Rockley Still 12 YO (1986 – 1998), 46% vol. (Pot Still)
- Bristol Classic Rum Rockley Still 13 YO (1986 - 1999), 46% vol. (Pot Still)
- Bristol Classic Rum Rockley Still 16 YO (1986 – 2002), Fino Finish, 46% vol. (Pot Still)
- Bristol Classic Rum Rockley Still 22 YO (1986 – 2008), Madeira Finish, 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Bristol Classic Rum Rockley Still 26 YO (1986 – 2012), Sherry Finish, 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Bristol Classic Rum Fine Barbados Rum Mount Gay Distillery 8 YO (2000 – 2008), 46% vol.
- Bristol Classic Rum Fine Barbados Rum Foursquare Distillery 9 YO (2003 – 2012), 46% vol.
- Cadenhead's Cask Strength BMMG from Mount Gay Distillery 8 YO (2000 - 2008), 66,3% vol. (Pot Still)
- Cadenhead's Cask Strength BBR from Blackrock Distillery 11 YO (2000 - 2012), 59,1% vol.
- Cadenhead's Cask Strength WIRR from Blackrock Distillery 12 YO (1986 - 1998), 74,1% vol. (Pot Still)
- Cadenhead's Cask Strength WIRR from Blackrock Distillery 14 YO (1986 - 2000), 69,2% vol. (Pot Still)
- Cadenhead's Cask Strength BRS (Rockley) from Blackrock Dist. 16 YO (1986 - 2003), 67,7% vol. (Pot Still)
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 10 YO (Mount Gay; 2000 - 2010 oder 2011), 46% vol.
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 12 YO (Rockley; 1986 - 1998 oder 1999), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 13 YO (Rockley; 1986 - 1999 oder 2000), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 15 YO (Rockley; 1986 - 2001 oder 2002), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 18 YO (Rockley; 1986 - 2004 oder 2005), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 25 YO, 46% vol.
- Ciguena Carta 1975 Very Old Superior Rhum 25 YO (1975 – 2000), 45% vol.
- Cockspur Rum 5 Star Fine Rum, 37,5% vol.
- Cockspur Old Gold Rum, 43% vol.
- Cockspur Fine Golden Rum, 37,5% vol.
- Cockspur V.S.O.R.Vintage Blend, 43% vol.
- Cockspur V.S.O.R 12 Bajan Crafted Rum, 40% vol.
- Cockspur Sir Gary VSOR
- Cockspur Rum Punch, 20% vol.
- Cockspur 5 Star 151 US Proof, 75,5% vol.
- Cockspur Fine Rum 1639, 43% vol.
- Doorlys Rum 5 YO, 40% vol.
- Doorlys XO Rum, Oloroso Finish, 40% vol.
- Doorly's Macaw White Barbados Rum, 40% vol.
- E. S. A. Field White Foursquare Distillery, 40% vol.
- E. S. A. F. Barbados White Rum, 43% vol.
- Foursquare Cask Selection 10 YO (1998 – 2008), 40% vol.
- Foursquare Rum Sixty-Six 12, 40% vol.
- Foursquare Spiced Rum, 37,5% vol.
- Kaniche Reserve Barbados, 40% vol.
- Kaniche Double Wood 11 YO, 45% vol.
- Kaniche Double Wood XO, 40% vol.
- Mabaruma Rum Barbajos Rockley Barbados 18 YO (1986 -2004), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Mabaruma Rum Barbajos Blackrock Barbados 11 YO (1996 – 2007), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Mabaruma Rum Barbajos Blackrock Barbados 10 YO (2000 – 2010), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Mount Gay Eclipse Silver, 40% vol.
- Mount Gay Eclipse Black 100 Proof, 50% vol.
- Mount Gay Eclipse Rum, 40% vol.
- Mount Gay Extra Old 12, 43% vol.
- Mount Gay 1703 Old Cask Selection, 43% vol.
- Mount Gay Sugar Cane Brandy, 43% vol.
- Mount Gay Tricentennial (Rums from 1969, 1974 & 1976), 40% vol.
- Mount Gay White Premium Rum, 43% vol.
- Mount Gay Special Reserve Barbados Rum, 40% vol.
- Mount Gilboa Barbados Rum, 40% vol.
- Mount Hope Distillery Runway Rum, 43% vol.
- Olde Brigand 10, 43% vol.
- Old Brigand Special Rum, 43% vol.
- Old Brigand Barbados Rum, 43% vol.
- Old Brigand Barbados White Rum, 37% vol.
- Old Brigand Black Label Superior Barbados Rum, 43% vol.
- Old Pascas Ron Blanco, 37,5% vol.
- Old Pascas Ron Negro, 37.5% vol.
- Paulsen Collection - Seales Foursquare Rum Vintage 1988 10 YO (1988 – 1998), 40% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Grande Reserve, 40% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Grande Reserve 5 YO, 40% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Old Reserve 1991 (Foursquare Distillery), 45% vol. (Column Still)
- Plantation Rum Barbados Old Reserve 1993, 45% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Old Reserve 1995, 45% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Old Reserve 1999, 45% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados Old Reserve 2000 9YO (Blackrock Distillery), 42% vol.
- Plantation Rum Single Cask Barbados 5 YO, Pineau des Charentes, 40% vol.
- Plantation Rum Single Cask Barbados 10 YO, 42% vol.
- Plantation Rum Single Cask Barbados 15 YO, 42% vol.
- Plantation Rum Barbados XO 12 YO, 20th Anniversary, 40% vol.
- Renegade Rum Company Foursquare 6 YO (2003 - 2009), Vin Doux Naturel Banyul Finish, 46% vol.
- Renegade Rum Company Blackrock 8 YO (2000 - 2008), Port Finish, 46% vol.
- Renegade Rum Company Blackrock 9 YO (2000 - 2009), Petrus Finish, 46% vol.
- R. L. Seale's Finest Barbados Rum 10 YO, 43% vol.
- R. L. Seale Barbados Gold Fine Rum, 43% vol.
- Rum Nation Barbados 8 YO (2002 – 2010), 43% vol.
- Rum Nation Barbados 10 YO (2001 – 2011), 43% vol.
- Rum Nation Barbados 12 YO (1995 – 2008), 43% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum Rockley Still 13 YO (1986 - 1999), 45% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum 18 YO (1986 – 2004), 45% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum 18 YO Single Cask (1986 – 2006), 45% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum 11 YO (1995 – 2006), 45% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum 15 YO (1996 – 2011), 45% vol.
- Samaroli Barbados Rum Yhemen Selection 9 YO (2000 – 2009), 45% vol.
- Secret Treasure Old Barbados Rum WIRD 14 YO (1986 – 2000), 42% vol.
- Secret Treasure Old Barbados Rum WIRD 7 YO (1995 – 2002), 42% vol.
- Silver Seal "Chairman's Reserve" 10 YO (1996 - 2006), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Silver Seal "Special Reserve" 14 YO (1996 - 2010), 46% vol. (Wildlife Series No. 1)
- St. Nicholas Abbey 8 YO, 40% vol. (Column- & Pot Still)
- St. Nicholas Abbey 10 YO, 40% vol. (Column- & Pot Still)
- St. Nicholas Abbey 12 YO, 40% vol. (Column- & Pot Still)
- Velier Caribbean Reserve Mount Gay Distillery 2000, 46% vol.
- Velier Caribbean Reserve Rockley Distillery 15 YO (1986 – 2001), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Velier Caribbean Reserve Rockley Distillery 18 YO (1986 – 2005), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Velier Caribbean Reserve Rockley Distillery 19 YO (1986 – 2006), 46% vol. (Pot-Still)
- Velier Rockley Barbados Rum 11 YO (1986 – 1997), 46% vol. by Thomson and Co. for Velier
- Vom Fass Barbados Rum 10 YO (2000 - 2010), 40% vol.
- West Indies Distillery Barbados ? YO (1986 - ?), 46% vol.
- West Indies Distillery Barbados Rum 8 YO, 50% vol.
This list had many mistakes as you can see (like the Paulsen Collection bottling which was distilled 1998 and not 1988). If you made your conclusion solely because of me then I will take the blame for this.
Capn Jimbo wrote:Thank you for your patience. I can assure you a very direct series of questions have been sent to Seales'. While we all await his response, I consider you already obligated to now defend and specify your own positions and claims - already made above - with citations, facts and links.
Please do so now, as claims and innuendo without support have no place here. Thanks. You are free to take any position you wish, but you must dignify them with appropriate specifics, cites, details and links.
Looks like you've been shown to be an empty vessel rumple. Your only obligation is to yourself and you now owe it to yourself to prove that you aren't the clown you appear to be.
Capn Jimbo wrote:Thank you for your patience. I can assure you a very direct series of questions have been sent to Seales'. While we all await his response, I consider you already obligated to now defend and specify your own positions and claims - already made above - with citations, facts and links.
Please do so now, as claims and innuendo without support have no place here. Thanks. You are free to take any position you wish, but you must dignify them with appropriate specifics, cites, details and links.
Thanks...
I am under no obligation to do anything.
Of course you are under no obligation. Nor am I obliged to excuse any poster from refusing to exhibit the courtesy to dignify, specify, cite and link their claims, particularly those of great importance. You've been given several full, polite and respectful opportunities to do so and apparently prefer to demand specifics and truth, but not to provide the same.
No oxen are beyond being gored here, but for the last time, I won't accept negative innuendo and unsupported claims. We were all looking forward to your full and honest participation and exposition. Ergo, vaya con burros, amigo...
A big thanks to Hass, Mama and Nek for their thorough, cited, linked and well posted information of value to all....
******* Regular posters may note that Mr. Skin has been placed "on hold" in the hope that he may have a change of heart insofar as truth and transparency, in which case full posting privileges will be happily restored. We all have bad days, so all is easily forgiven. Skin, feel free to e-mail moi if this be the case...
Nekkandor wrote:You are referreing to an old site of mine, sir. The Plantation 1991 is coming from W.I.R.D.. The Foursquare Distillery was founded and established 1996 if I am not mistaken. This site is old, has many mistakes and will not get any updates. If your conlusions only coming from this then I will get it offline ASAP. I will not discredit Mr. Seales by let this false information standing there. Here is my actual blog.
It's impossible for Seales to deliver what he did not produce. I'm sure you can agree on this.
As for the translations: Google-translations sucks. The rums behind Plantation in the past were coming from W.I.R.D.. The taste is really similar to the ones coming from Blackrock and which you can find in the Cockspur-Rums. 1991, 1995 and 2000 were from W.I.R.D..
Seale does sell his rums to other bottlers. Berry Bros & Rudd for an example is releasing such rums. Those rums are really differently as the old ones coming from Plantation. I'm buying no longer rums from this bottler so I can not say to you what they are now using. They are too sweet for my taste.
Well thank you for most quickly clearing up this matter your website contained the most review information regarding these particular rums I could find actually. I have a few more questions about this topic however, this whole thread has me somewhat interested in this topic now. I just have a few questions about this for you maybe I'm missing something because I can't find clear information on who actually distills Plantation Barbados 100% for sure.
1991 and 1995 we know from deduction is possibly either Mt. Gay or W.I.R.D. But from here on how do you know it is W.I.R.D? You state these three the 1991, 1995, and 2000. What about the 15 year single cask you have reviewed, in your review it seems you were most interestingly debating the distiller of the rum?
It seems on this website you posted the following regarding the Plantation Barbados 15 year single cask that was bottled in 2011:
"Destillerie: unbekannt, am ehesten Foursquare"
Translation:
"Distillery : unknown , most likely Foursquare"
This rum would bring us to the very cusp of 1996 date being bottled in Sept 2011. This would probably not include the time C. Ferrand spent finishing the cask either in this 15 year age statement. That being said it is highly doubtful to be foursquare based on it pushing back into 1995 with finishing which often times last 12-18 months for plantation rums.
All this being said we can show that neither the older vintage releases or the more recent longer aged Plantation Barbados Releases based on pure logic alone are from foursquare. That being said its highly doubtful in my opinion that foursquare supplies rum to C. Ferrand's Plantation projects.
That leaves two others, unless of course the rum is shipped in from Trinidad blended in Barbados then shipped to France and a Product of Barbados stamp is put on the bottle, somewhat like Pusser's (not saying this is actually happens just saying we have nothing saying where its actually distilled). I don't doubt your W.I.R.D thoughts, I think this is possibly more likely than Mt. Gay. The W.I.R.D products such as cockspur and Blue chair bay taste nothing like the Plantation Barbados rum's I have had, and neither should after being dosed and finished in France. You actually concur with that from what I understand on your blog review that the flavors were nothing like any distillate made on Barbados... But I have looked and can't find any information stating the W.I.R.D supplies any rum to C. Ferrand's Plantation and was wondering if you could shed further light on this for me.
At the time of writing I was convinced it 'could' be a rum from Mr. Seale. But that review was a long time ago and by now I highly doub that this 'fine' 15 YO is one of his. But the truth is: It's tasting so unnatural that you can't be 100% sure. I have bottlings that were unaltered and bottled by some indys coming from the Foursquare Distillery, Blackrock Distillery and Mount Gay. Comparing by taste, I would say it is in never coming from the latter one. The taste of Mount Gay is very differently from the other two distilleries. You will find this taste only in less quantities in the Mount Gay XO. Through blending it has lost much of his power. I know it sound incredible in every sense of the word and I would not have believed it if someone would have just told me this but I had both rums in a tasting. I doubt that this is a Mount Gay rum.
Theoretically it could have been coming from the Foursquare Distillery made in 1996. The only person who could clearly say from who this rum is would be Mr Seale. If he is conforming, that he is selling rums in bulk since, lets say 1998 (this is the first vintage that appeared on the independent market), then this one could never be from him. By taste it is really hard to tell because Ferrand is heavily altering the stuff. The first ones like the 1991 were not that extreme and not that sweet. They tasted like Blackrock. But I can't do a tasting again because I dumped the content of the bottle in the toilet in disgust two years ago. This fact of alteration and the reason that he is adding sugar and I don't like too sweet rums, are the facts, why I will never do a review of one of the plantation rums again. First I liked this 15 YO when I had it the first time. But after I found a 'real rum' which was totally unsweet and coming from Barbados my palate started to change. It was the Cadenhead Green Label Barbados 15 YO. I have written this story somewhere on the blog. I was looking for alternatives and ended up drinking mostly rums coming from the independent bottlers, which Plantation Rum is not in my opinion.
So yes: I was a sweet tooth at the beginning.
The rum is sold in bulk to UK. I have no idea who is buying and shipping that stuff. Same as the bulk from the Diamond Distillery. The stuff just appears in the warehouses of some companies in UK and they are selling the barrels to bottlers or are exchanging them for whisky barrels with other brokers. Ferrand's must get his rums from there like anyone else. No independent bottler is going to the Caribbean (except Velier S.p.A.) and is buying a 'few barrels'. Someone is buying that en gros and is shipping it to Europe. There it gets distributed. This market is an insider market. Contacts are not advertised much. Maybe other bottlers are now doing the same and they are sourcing rums in the Caribbean. But the truth is: I don't know. I'm a customer and not a bottler. I have some contacts to a few German bottlers and the information I am getting is really fancy. It seems that it is very hard to get your hand on a very good barrel. I do not know who is buying the rums from Mr. Seale and is bringing them to Europe. Only he could tell us the name of the importer.
Well I finally found proof that W.I.R.D at least one time has sold a massive amount of bulk rum in one transaction directly to C. Ferrand about 1.5 years ago. 1 container with a total weight of 55,880 lbs... that is quite a bit of rum there.
So I found that one off export information and that was it. I then checked out some other companies. Foursquare has been very busy selling bulk rum all over. Here are 45 documented records of the transactions. (you need to sign up to see more information) It looks like they even supplied Pyrat before. Lots of records showing bulk sales to various American shell companies who make their own rums through subsidiaries and sell bulk to others. Lots of cheap brands when you track them down.
Count em up 7 different rum brands all from barbados most look like bottom shelve swill. Can't say how many are foursquare but I think its safe to say most if not all.
Proof here USDP co trademarked one of the rums under their own name:
So we know that fourquare documented clearly here sells bulk rum to large US companies who then bottle and or distribute it from there. The webs are so long and intertwined it could take forever to track down all the rum brands and bottlers. I think its safe to say though if it says From Barbados and its rum bottled in the state of MN then its most likely foursquare.
What about Europe though I thought. I was also able to find a very good shipping relationship between Foursquare and a Bulk rum dealer in the Netherlands.
These are just several records there are many more I located but I think this makes a point.
I researched hard even signing up for a site or two but after these bulk sales finding who they sell it to just is not to be found. The next step was possibly linking a sale from Sheer to C. Ferrand (The netherlands is too close to believe it not possible they do business.) Also I only found 1 instance where C. Ferrand imported their own rum.
What is the point of all this? Well if a Bulk seller in the Netherlands who purchased from foursquare over 15 verified times massive amounts of bulk aged rums and that close to France? Well maybe Foursquare does not sell directly to C. Ferrand but given all this information it is very possible that after it is sold to bulk reseller Sheer it could go to C. Ferrand. C. Ferrand could easily call up Sheer and make an order today most likely if they needed/wanted more Barbados rum. Who says given the availability of already imported aged bulk rum it has not already happened?
Note: There still is no definitive proof that Plantation has used products made by Foursquare
A must read, along with the links a few posts above. It would appear he has answered these concerns to his best and honest ability. I do hope this will be informative for all...
