Skirting of the law: Private sellers and 'Bottlespot'

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:57 am

It all seems dodgy to me, do you know?

Found a surprising and rather professional site called "Bottlespot". They claim to be putting buyers and sellers together to purchase - are you sitting - "collectible containers", ie bottles! Just one thing though - it so happens that each and every one of the bottles I found were full and unopened bottles of collectible/desirable spirits. Let's face it - no one, but no one is buying the dodgy line that seems to accompany each ad:

"For Sale: Ardbeg Ardbog | 52.1% ALC/VOL – 750ML

Price: $ 170.00
Pay with: Paypal Cash
Seller: Private Party
Account: Unregistered
Listed On: Monday, September 28, 2015
Listed In: Whisky
Location: Plano, Dallas, Texas - Map
Whisk(e)y type: Scotch, Single Malt

Ardbeg Ardbog | 52.1% ALC/VOL – 750ML

A limited edition Ardbeg released during the Fèis Ìle whisky festival. Aged in a combination of bourbon as well as some Manzanilla sherry casks. Released on June 2013.

Buyer must be 21 or older.

Can meet face to face in Frisco, McKinney, Plano or Richardson, TX. Cash $170
If shipping is required, $190 shipped with Adult Signature. Buyer pays PayPal fees.

The value of the item is in the collectible container, not its contents."

I'll say it again "The value of the item is in the collectible container, not its contents". Really? Really? Hey if it walks like a duck...

The ad includes a luscious photo of what appears to be a very new box, and bottle, both mint and untouched. The bottle seems as originally purchased. Now to me, this is a clever scam. Every "collectible container" I could find on this law skimming site miraculously happened to be full of the original spirit.

I doubt the legality of this scheme. No one, but no one is buying "the value is in the collectible container, not the contents" argument. The buyers are buying bottles of desirable spirits, period.

Anyone see it differently?

*******
http://www.bottle-spot.com/posts/55420/ ... ol---750ml

19Jamie76 · Post by **19Jamie76** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:31 pm

Of course private individuals selling bottles to others is illegal. That being said, it's pretty ridiculous that the laws here in the States are so screwed up that private individuals can't sell to others. The government isn't afraid some teenager is going to get their hands on alcohol. No, they are bent out of shape because they aren't getting their cut in taxes.

The same thing happened with Ebay. It's completely fine in Europe...not here. Again, they make up this whole..."some kid can easily order alcohol off the net." Remember the news story that showed a kid getting beer off of Ebay? Complete b.s. If you are a kid that wants alcohol, you are going to get it...easily, and locally. Forget Ebay.

For "safety sake" they could have removed auctions for low priced crap. I can all but guarantee, no youngsters were buying multi hundred dollar bottles of rare bourbon, etc.

Back to Bottlespot. I do know legitimate businesses also sell on there. People also trade, which to my knowledge is completely legal.

AK9 · Post by **AK9** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:18 am

The increase in prices will bring lots of fakes in circulation.
Some good articles in the past in whiskyfun showing original and fakes.

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:54 am

Nice find AK, and Jamie I hear you, but feel forced to ask this question:

If it's legal, then why the included statement that the price and sale are based on "...the collectible container and not the contents"? These spirits are not old, just hard to find, and the bottles are hardly collectible and trust me, no one is going to pay $200 for a relatively new and empty bottle. No one.

And if it's the "collectible containers" that are really being bought and sold, then how come I see no empties being sold? Last, I've seen what appears to be a similar skirting of the law with pipe tobaccos. Many of these really are historical and very old, and long discontinued. They are being sold on the same premise of the "collectible container" and just happen to be full and unopened.

In any event, this is a serious question - if legal, then just why the disclaimer?

19Jamie76 · Post by **19Jamie76** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:10 am

It most definitely is not legal. The secondary market is the main cause for the extreme prices we see in some of the rare (not necessarily old) bourbons. It is also the secondary market that has allowed some retailers to charge much much more than retail and then justify it by saying "that is what it's going for on the net."

I had this happen to me not long ago. Went in to a local place and noticed a bottle of Buffalo Trace Eagle Rare 17 YO. This bottle should retail for around $80. This individual was asking $450. Again, their justification was "that is what it's going for on the net." The last time I went in there, the bottle was gone, so people are buying.

Talking about fakes...Why do you think completely empty bottles of bourbons like Pappy Van Winkle are selling on Ebay? Fill those bottles up with a $30 bourbon and most of the "I need this bottle to maintain my social status" who have never tried the real thing will never know.

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:18 am

Great post Jamie, and even I had this experience...

Long ago I was able to find a local Indian retailer who sold me a Pappy 20yr for $120 (suggested retail), later found a 15yr for about $80. I treasure them both, and dole it out - just to myself - on very rare and special occasions.

Recently I visited another liquor store and happened to mention I had a Pappy 20 and 15. The proprietor's eyes opened wide and he immediately offered to buy them from me - until I said they were both opened and half gone.

I just checked and empties are going for around $60 on Ebay, and on Bottlespot saw two unopened Pappy 15's for $700 to $900. My Pappy 20 would have gone there for - urp - $2250! It's crazy fackin nuts. Look, they are both lovely bourbons but no way in hell worth that kind of stupid arse money.

da'rum · Post by **da'rum** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:22 am

The secondary market is a huge problem and often complained about here in Germany. A limited release whisky hits the market and is sold out in minutes. Minutes later the bottles are on various auction sites for twice the original price. People who buy these bottles are as just as idiotic as the sellers.

Post by **Capn Jimbo** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:50 am

I'm with you d'rum - and nice to see your post...

Look I bought the Pappy's as at the time they received the highest ratings ever awarded by BTI (at the time the only "99" I'd ever seen), so - just for once - I wanted to experience what a truly top rated and regarded spirit was like. It lived up to my expectations.

But to be honest, had I known my 15 and 20's would be worth this kind of money, I'd have been hard put not to buy out the retailer for $80 and $120. I could have put a new roof on my house for just one of them, fer gawdssake.

What this really may be is just another expression of our redistributed world economy in which the Top 1% has become unthinkably rich while the rest of us barely get by. These deep pocketed "winners" then have the problem of what to do with more money than anyone really needs.

It turns into gross symbolism, and an attitude of "I'll buy it at an outrageous price - no matter what the real value or quality - because I can". And another bright shiny object appears on their already vast liquor shelf. Another super-luxury car, another yacht and so it goes.

For us $2200 for a Pappy 20 is unthinkable; for these types it's chump change.

Another view

Is that the economic collapse has divided the market - cheaped out, tricked out, NAS fake releases for the hoi polloi, a few invented and premiumized releases for the dwindling middle and upper middle class, and then the Anniversary Blow Job Super Duper Premiums for the 1%.

Thus we see a lot of what are really rather forced and sometimes made-up "limited" releases that seemed destined to be snapped up and auctioned to idiots with money, and who aren't counting. And frankly, who don't really know or understand the spirits.

da'rum · Post by **da'rum** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:45 am

Ardbeg Superdupernova NAS horsepiss is proof of that.

AK9 · Post by **AK9** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:02 pm

I raise you a Yamazaki Sherry Cask 2013.
From £100 to near 1K.
For a NAS.

The economic climate sure has something to do. Are all these people overpaying for luxury or are they looking for returns they cant find in a normal account?
It would be very funny if in 5-10yrs all those "investment" bottles are released in the market and we can buy them cheap (and drink them!).

mamajuana · Post by **mamajuana** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:40 pm

I personally believe this sort of activity needs to be legalized. Too many government regulations exist that hinder the free market. These draconian laws need to be repealed. There should be a free flowing market especially between states for the exchange of liquor even if it just starts out between retailers and customers. Too many times I want to go order a new craft bottle or rare/single release from a state only to find that its illegal to ship out of state so they don't do it. This legalization would only serve to bring prices down as more competition would exist in the market.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:16 pm

mamajuana wrote:I personally believe this sort of activity needs to be legalized. Too many government regulations exist that hinder the free market. These draconian laws need to be repealed. There should be a free flowing market especially between states for the exchange of liquor even if it just starts out between retailers and customers. Too many times I want to go order a new craft bottle or rare/single release from a state only to find that its illegal to ship out of state so they don't do it. This legalization would only serve to bring prices down as more competition would exist in the market.

Hear, hear!
I order online a lot. Probably 5 or so times a year, 6-12 bottles at a time, to get things not available here. But, Total Wine for instance has an exclusive deal with Seale and Foursquare. They do not ship to my state so theses rums are not available to me. If I want them I either have to drive 6+ hours each way or get help from friends. This seams to be a hindrance with no benefit to anyone.

da'rum · Post by **da'rum** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:10 am

The big problem with deregulation would be that the limited editions and end of run bottlings would be snapped up by the ebay and auction sellers and then resold at huge mark ups. This would leave the common man unable to afford some bottles. Deregulation would only be good for the mass produced stuff. Restriction of sales between states of a country is a bit idiotic though.