Debate: Richard Seale vs Luis Ayala

[Capn Jimbo]

You will be interested in following this debate...


It all stared when Luca Gargano of Velier recently proposed classifying rum as follows:

• 1. Pure Single Rum – 100% pot (i.e. batch) still
  2. Single Blended Rum – a blend of only pot still and traditional column still
  3. Rum – rum from a traditional column still
  4. Industrial Rum – Modern multi column still

As some of you know Luis Ayala publishes an E-zine called "Got Rum", where he commented on Gargano's proposal as follows:

A Tale of Two Stills
Luis Ayala- Rum Consultant

It’s been brought to my attention that some people in the industry are proposing differentiating rums based on the type of still used for their distillation, the choices being “Pot Still” or “Column Still.” While I know that there are a few, educated, technical people behind this notion, most of the noise is coming from un-educated, non-technical “followers” who lack the knowledge to understand how far to push the concept.

Those who assume that all pot stills produce heavy, congener-rich distillates, forget (or conveniently ignore) the fact that many small (“craft”) distilleries actually use pot stills to produce vodka and other light/neutral spirits. Many distill multiple times, others have one or more columns attached to their pot stills, a small number of them even purchase “low wines” (low ABV distillate) from large distilleries and re distill in their pots, claiming the result to be “pot-distilled”.

For example, to claim that the distillate (rum, in our case) coming out of a simple pot still (round copper bottom, onion head with swan neck) and an Adams Pot Still with Two Retorts is the same, in alcohol strength and congener level, is simply wrong. To further assume that the distillate coming out of a “beer” or “stripping” column is the same as that coming out of a rectifying column is even more ridiculous.

How then, is one to differentiate the rich, congener-laden distillate from its lighter counterpart? The answer is simple: quantification of congener per volume! Unfortunately this is not as easy as simply mentioning the equipment owned and operated by the producer, but it is scientific and, as such, unquestionable.

Any decent alcohol beverage lab can test the alcohol and produce a report, usually in a matter of hours. If consumers demand to see this information, or if trade associations demand it of their members, perhaps someday we’ll see a meaningful identifier on the labels.

Until then, I’ll caution consumers, bloggers and industry members from attaching too much meaning to a piece of equipment. I’ve had my share of horrible and beautiful distillates, all along the congener spectrum, coming from both pot and column stills.

Cheers,

Luis Ayala, Editor and Publisher"

To be fair, Luis has been around quite some time, and his collector's item book "The Rum Experience" was decently done, and perhaps the first publication that did a reasonable job of educating consumers. In it, Ayala also classified rums, but rather differently (more later). All in all, he is surely qualified to comment, but...

Is his criticism justified? Richard Seale thought not and commented in great detail (I have asked his permission to republish it here). For the time being you can read his lengthy and impassioned counterpoint here...

http://www.amountainofcrushedice.com/?p=22928

Your comments are requested, I'll hold mine...




*******
http://www.gotrum.com/editorials/from-t ... wo-stills/

Special Thanks to member Paul who brought this interchange to my attention, thank you!

[Capn Jimbo]

Let me start off with Gargano:


Gargano's proposed classifications appear to be based on a sort of heirarchy of stills, namely:

1. Pot
2. Traditional Column
3. Modern multi-column

Ayala criticizes this by making the assumption that Gargano's proposal is really somehow based on congeners, that the most congeners are produced by a pot still, and ever less as you then proceed up the heirarchy.

Ayala then argues that pots can also produce vodka (few if any congeners), while column stills can likewise be made to produce higher congener products, which is the opposite of what Ayala claims Gargano is implying.

By making this altered comparison, he then rejects Gargano's proposition and offers his own proposition, namely that if classification is really about congeners, then whether a rum is pot stilled or not is immaterial.

In a somewhat tongue-in-cheek fashion, Ayala concludes by proposing that until or unless the distillers or regulators choose to test for and require the number of congeners, that there is no need to bother reclassifying rums at all, and Gargano, in essence, has failed.

In other words, classification by congeners is unlikely, Gargano's attempt is inconsistent, things are just fine, and please just carry on.


As for moi, as for now:

I let you now digest Richard's impassioned response, but for moi, for now I'll first state that in fact, Jamaica DOES classify by congeners (as many of us know). Still, and as Richard counters, although pot stills largely DO produce more congeners, that "congeners" is not what Gargano is really proposing.

Comments?

[The Black Tot]

I think that Gargano's system of classification would solve the real problem that rogue rum lovers really have - how to know when the contents of a fancy bottle were made on a high volume column still.

A congener count could be deceptive. More congeners doesn't necessarily mean better, right? Of course, neither does pot still mean better, per se.

However, again, what is the big villain here? It's the super capacity industrial column still. Gargano's classification would simply out these, period.

I have the feeling that the industry giants would quickly find a way to goose their congener counts by additives in order to rig a congener-based measurement system.

Think of how well Lost Spirits would do in such a congener-count world of classification, for example.

I think Gargano is on the better path - consider the terminology we have with bourbon in the US:

Single Barrel : Self-evident
Small batch : Not really defined but pretty-well respected to be the blending of between 70-1000+ selected barrels depending on who you're dealing with.

Perhaps we'd be better off with single barrel and small batch definitions, with numerical limits to small batches, building on the lost opportunities in the bourbon world. Blending and batching after all can be a significant skill and factor in a rum's taste, with no effect on authenticity.

Really what's needed is a word akin to "straight" as it applies to bourbon for rum. A catch word like "certified" or, my suggestion, "sovereign" rum, or "chartered" rum. Those are both good words which can mean something if a gov't body gets behind it.

To be a chartered rum you must, similar to bonded bourbon:
accurately state if the rum was blended or single batch
identify a la Gargano which type of stills used for which stages of distillation.
State sugar plantation of source of cane/molasses
state minimum age of youngest rum in the blend, if blended. Minimum age of 5yrs in the barrel to achieve chartered status.
identify distillation distillery, as well as bottling distillery
State no additives of any kind involved in product
Be bottled at a minimum of 100 proof (I'd actually like to see 114 in light of rum's gunpowder proof traditions)
edit: And also give comments on cooperage such as was it aged in ex bourbon, cognac, sherry, or other casks? And whether they were first fill, second fill, etc? French or American oak?

[The Fat Rum Pirate]

I seem to remember there was Rum Flavour or Tasting Wheel/Map that was introduced by some French Agricole producer.

It too wanted to class certain rums as "Industrial". I don't want to be disrespectful but which producer in their right mind is going to label their rum "industrial".

I said it on Facebook and I will say it again. This is simply not going to happen so a debate around it is entirely meaningless.

Interesting it may be but the Rum World as it stands is not going to adopt Gargano's system. Sorry but its just the truth. If anyone thinks otherwise then please remind me of this post in 5 or 10 years time and we'll see what has actually happened......

[AK9]

You could be right but Velier has build some good following over the last years.
-In many rum review sites, their products are considered as the top.
-In many forums they are considered as the products that everyone wants to get when they are released.

And he is in good cooperation with few rum distillers so he has a foot in the industry.

I dont think this in vain. If few companies and IB bottlers follow this classification this might move.

[The Black Tot]

Discussion of what might be ideal always can be argued to be pointless in the face of established systems that could use a change.

No offense, but what are you adding to a discussion by saying something is meaningless?

If we just try to slap down everyone with an idealistic vision by telling them there's no point to their considering something better, where exactly are our innovations or improvements to come from?

Honestly, I understand what side you are on, but I think you should consider that a comment like "this is meaningless and I bet in 5-10 years you'll have accomplished nothing" isn't really compatible with that.

If you don't have a better idea, then at least don't bash it. If you do have a more workable idea, let's hear it.

If this happens, it's not going to be "voluntary" from the producers. It's going to be a government requirement, like bonded and straight bourbons are in the US.

[The Fat Rum Pirate]

Discussion of what might be ideal always can be argued to be pointless in the face of established systems that could use a change.

No offense, but what are you adding to a discussion by saying something is meaningless?

If we just try to slap down everyone with an idealistic vision by telling them there's no point to their considering something better, where exactly are our innovations or improvements to come from?

Honestly, I understand what side you are on, but I think you should consider that a comment like "this is meaningless and I bet in 5-10 years you'll have accomplished nothing" isn't really compatible with that.

If you don't have a better idea, then at least don't bash it. If you do have a more workable idea, let's hear it.

If this happens, it's not going to be "voluntary" from the producers. It's going to be a government requirement, like bonded and straight bourbons are in the US.

Luka is trying to "introduce" this system at the same time he is about to release 100% Pot Still Rums to the market.

Purely coincidentally this just happens to put such rums at the top of the pecking order.........

I'm all for changes in rum but I fail to see how an independent producer with a system which is so obviously and in my opinion deliberately flawed from the outset is really going to achieve what he is suggesting?

I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing that out. It's an argument over a system which won't be introduced. Nice publicity though.

[The Black Tot]

Luca's rums all sell out. He doesn't need a classification system biased just to move more Velier - he can't keep it in stock as it already stands.

I think it's unfair to suggest that he is doing this even significantly for the benefit of his own company. He has done a great deal to advance the concept of rum as worthy of inclusion alongside the world's great premium spirits. He is one of rum's greatest ambassadors.

OK, you think it's flawed. How would The Fat Rum Pirate improve on it then, beyond saying that it's flawed, self-serving, and pointless?

[The Fat Rum Pirate]

Luca's rums all sell out. He doesn't need a classification system biased just to move more Velier - he can't keep it in stock as it already stands.

I think it's unfair to suggest that he is doing this even significantly for the benefit of his own company. He has done a great deal to advance the concept of rum as worthy of inclusion alongside the world's great premium spirits. He is one of rum's greatest ambassadors.

OK, you think it's flawed. How would The Fat Rum Pirate improve on it then, beyond saying that it's flawed, self-serving, and pointless?

I don't think it is unfair don't you think its a little coincidental? Also Richard defends the system who also has an interest in the new venture. I think once again the Project is being slightly blinded by the fact of who is proposing it rather than what and why.

I never said it was pointless. I said a discussion around the proposed categories was meaningless as they won't be introduced. That I will stand by and I'm pretty sure enough of us have been in the Rum World long enough to know its unfortunately, likely to be true.

What goes into a bottle of rum is of great interest to me. I always try and find out before publishing reviews etc.

A system which openly describes the contents of the bottle without suggesting a bias towards perceived quality would be my preferred method. It wouldn't be 100 miles away from Luka's suggestion but I would never suggest using "industrial" as a term. Nor would I "rank" rum in such a way - which in effect is what this is trying to do.

If you want people to adopt your theories then you have to make them attractive to them. This won't do this for many rum producers.

As for governments - as the UK government doesn't actively enforce EU legislation regarding additives in rum I doubt very much it would wish to invest too much time and money in policing rum labels.

Whilst rum is very important to us, it is not so important when considering others things governments need to focus on especially in the current climate.

I think the Project often lets itself down with its own biases and wishes to believe its heroes. To the point where those biases and arguments become as much fantasy as some of the rubbish on Rum Bottles. I seem to remember the idea that Richard Seale sells bulk rum to certain producers was shot down - but its true.

[The Black Tot]

Seriously though, implying that the system is being promoted not-coincidentally to move more of their product would also imply, ipso facto, that they needed such advertising.

Since when has Velier needed a sales boost? They already got it from printing "Velier" on the label.

Also, Richard and Luca, howevermuch we may respect them around here, are far from the only people who suggest that pot still batched rums represent a higher echelon of rums. Even the preacher says that. I think you'll find that's not Richard and Luca's bias, but the consensus among the experienced.

I don't think this is a hero-worship issue - you won't find me shrinking from a disagreement with Richard or Luca should the time come. But I don't disagree with the hierarchy as suggested by them in this case.

Again, I refer you back to bourbon. The labeling hierarchy there is that single barrel product is better than small batch, which is again better than standard batched bourbons.

This is generally accepted, but it doesn't change the fact that occasionally a dog of a barrel is released and it's worse than the large batch bourbon was.

Does that mean the hierarchy is not useful? Not at all. Usually the single barrel product is selected to be above average, and the consumer is rewarded for selecting it. In this same way, one can have a classification system that still exhibits anomalies, like a traditional column still product which is a better experience than a pot still, etc. That's the spirits world.

About adoption of the theory being attractive to rum producers - you're not convincing the producers, you're convincing consumer advocacy groups. Different demographic.

I think you or I would have a difficult time accurately predicting what the UK or EU governments will or will not do, and on the subject of priorities, while enforcing labeling standards for spirits has never and will never be as important as feeding the hungry or healing the sick, at various points in history labeling standards were passed in several countries, irrespective of the fact that during those times I'm sure there were always other arguably more pressing matters. Even in "the current climate", there are still laws being passed all the time that could never be argued to be the most pressing issues of the day.

Anyway, I don't think you should be surprised at an objection here to the summary of your posts:
-The project engages in hero-worship and you guys just like this because Luca and Richard say so
-This suggestion of this hierarchy has probably been timed for L+R's gain with the upcoming release of pot still products.
-No government will prioritize this
-The multi-column producers will not be happy

I just wonder if you're realizing that I could counter the hero-worship suggestion above with the suggestion that your comments/ideas here are coming right out of a Diageo lobbyist's playbook.

"It's meaningless to try, you'll never succeed"

The people on this site don't think that way. It's not hero-worship, it's resistance and advocacy.

[Capn Jimbo]

FWIW....


"The Project" has never taken a position on classifying rum short of pleas for honest labeling as to contents and age; indeed this thread is the very first mention of Gargano's proposal, Ayala's response and Seale's counterpoint. All raised in the interest of debate, which is now occuring, blessed be all who have participated.

I do appreciate the both the liveliness and mutual respect in presentation of differing viewpoints. Shortly, I will try to summarize Richard's position.

Do carry on and thanks to all.

[dawsonh]

Wonderful discussion guys!

As a consumer who looks for quality (rather than quantity) of experience; but also mindful of the cost, I appreciate the information I get from friends, forums like this and the words printed on the label of any bottle I consider buying. Those words mean something to me; they are the contract between produced and consumer.

Gargano proposes terminology to differentiate between batch and continuous disillation. This is a good thing. And in my opinion useful in my search for a quality drinking experience. I will not rely on this definition as my only criteria for purchase... even if I could alway afford to make it.

When I check out a lable/box, I look for words such as: pot stilled, single/small batch, non chilled filtered, no color added, cask strength, etc. These words to me suggest quality. I like to see a description of the mash bill and cask selection as well as an accurate age description of the spirit(s) bottled. I expect that what is written on the label is true and the producers should be held accountable... truth in advertising.

I am much less impressed by the packaging and "story" (AKA BS).

If I don't see the "right" words I will most likely move on to another selection... unless there are other external influences, such as a favorable review by friend or forum member.

So a thumbs up from me for truthful and descriptive verbiage!

Dawson

[cyril]

that classification proposed by Luca Gargano is few years old, it aint that new to be accurate.

i find it good for rum as a whole, and for us as consumers. Classify rums by its primary source (molasses or pure juice) and method of production (pot stills, traditional and industrial column) is all right, kind of logical ; think about scotch whisky in the 60's.

It cant be perfect, nothing is, but seeing guys such as Richard spreading the words makes sens. The whole classification makes sens, but some big companies will complain, of course

[The Fat Rum Pirate]

that classification proposed by Luca Gargano is few years old, it aint that new to be accurate.

i find it good for rum as a whole, and for us as consumers. Classify rums by its primary source (molasses or pure juice) and method of production (pot stills, traditional and industrial column) is all right, kind of logical ; think about scotch whisky in the 60's.

It cant be perfect, nothing is, but seeing guys such as Richard spreading the words makes sens. The whole classification makes sens, but some big companies will complain, of course

So Cyril do you think it's a coincidence that such a system is being proposed just as Velier are about to launch a release of pot stilled rums?

It really doesn't take a genius to work it out does it?

[The Black Tot]

that classification proposed by Luca Gargano is few years old

Note also that even in a perfect world of instantly efficient government where this proposal got adopted today, the labels for the new Velier products are already designed and approved, and the regulations would have to be slowly phased in to allow other producers to catch up, ie they wouldn't come into effect until after the Velier products were sold out.

If this was designed to boost sales on the about to be released bottles, the timing would be rather legendarily stupid. And Luca ain't stupid.

I know you really want to cling to this idea that Luca and Richard are trying to rig the market in some Darth Vader universe where a pot still shaped Death Star controls the galaxy, but I'm afraid you just might have to accept that Luca may actually be doing this for altruistic reasons that he believes in, personally.